tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post1686254541299581095..comments2024-03-28T14:35:30.147-04:00Comments on Tank Archives: The One with the Rifle ShootsPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-83263564990696281082013-10-20T00:00:13.664-04:002013-10-20T00:00:13.664-04:00guess what, the date written in the document was i...guess what, the date written in the document was in 1941Mikoyannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-45084049666001702452013-09-23T04:50:00.826-04:002013-09-23T04:50:00.826-04:00Was in a hurry to get out the door when I commente...Was in a hurry to get out the door when I commented last, so let me expand on this: the pop culture perception of blocking detachments (think Enemy at the Gates type bullshit) and what they actually did are two very different things. Several commanders met their formation with resistance since it took men away from the front (Chuikov being one of them); at times they were "borrowed" and sent into combat themselves. When operating in their intended capacity, a blocking detachment would usually be further behind the front (certainly not as portrayed in pop culture) and would not machine-gun retreating soldiers willy-nilly. The role of the blocking detachment was to discourage desertion, not massacre legitimately retreating forces.<br /><br />Soldiers caught by the blocking detachments faced a number of possible fates. One was simply being told to turn around and head back to the front, or being folded into the next group of reinforcements. Another was being assigned to a shtrafbat which was definitely more dangerous than regular duty but was not the suicide mission it is made out to be. Of course, court martial was also a possibility, and execution would arise as a possibility there.<br /><br />The actual numbers speak for themselves: the vast majority of RKKA soldiers were never sent to shtrafbats, and only a tiny proportion were actually executed. Bear in mind that the RKKA mobilised such an incredibly large number of troops during the course of the war that a number that looks big to us may actually be rather insignificant in reality.<br /><br />It's also important to keep in mind that the Germans were also performing similar actions, although according to their own names and systems. They also executed soldiers.<br /><br />At the end of the day, though, if a soldier is still capable of fighting and will not actively sabotage you or spread panic, there is little reason to shoot him. It's a waste of manpower and of life.<br /><br />IMPORTANT NOTE: Invidivual commanders and even private soldiers were known to have shot deserters who tried to cross to the Germans. This was an action by the infantry units themselves and had nothing to do with blocking detachments, nor was it really comparable - defecting soldiers who may divulge important intel or aid the enemy are a whole different kettle of fish from deserters who just want to piss off home.rossmumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15145748774081415499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-54058194057568154352013-09-22T08:12:32.724-04:002013-09-22T08:12:32.724-04:00That's not how order 227 worked, hope this hel...That's not how order 227 worked, hope this helpsrossmumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15145748774081415499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-12060934397375789712013-09-21T19:18:24.218-04:002013-09-21T19:18:24.218-04:00You may have to PM Peter about this or ask those i...You may have to PM Peter about this or ask those in Historical forum, man. There are quite a number of people not fully understanding about Order 227.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-43248371254272662312013-09-21T15:27:26.967-04:002013-09-21T15:27:26.967-04:00Yes, that was in 1945, when the Red Army was the f...Yes, that was in 1945, when the Red Army was the finest war machine the world had seen so far.<br /><br />Things looked quite different back in 1942, when "Order 227" was issued, establishing blocking detachments and penal battalions to prevent further retreat.<br /><br />It was those poor chaps who were tasked to clear minefields by walking over them, or attract enemy fire wearing "camouflage" designed to draw attention.<br /><br />Most "volunteers" for these units already had a death sentence, being criminals or "enemies of the Soviet Union"Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751493792596112088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-12041835323488906662013-09-19T18:10:30.557-04:002013-09-19T18:10:30.557-04:00RE: Shtrafbats and armament: http://dr-guillotin.l...RE: Shtrafbats and armament: http://dr-guillotin.livejournal.com/24461.html<br /><br />Here's a list of one understrength shtrafbat in 1945. For 191 battle-ready men (253 total minus 46 being released due to their term being up and 16 being released due to wounds), there are 90 rifles, 83 SMGs, 8 hand MGs, 3 mounted MGs, 4 ATRs. That's 90+83+8+3*3+4*2 = 198 soldiers worth of weapons. Assuming MG squads don't get a commander for some reason, 195 soldiers'. <br /><br />That's assuming all 191 men will fight, including the 45 senior officers. Also there's at least one radio operator, but let's give him a weapon too. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-24441520849467028712013-09-19T17:58:20.768-04:002013-09-19T17:58:20.768-04:00Also there was plenty of planning, it was just dis...Also there was plenty of planning, it was just disconnected from reality. See the request for 5000 T-50s when the tank didn't even finish trials yet. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-41657250969035766122013-09-19T17:57:05.002-04:002013-09-19T17:57:05.002-04:00Ahaha, what? Shtrafbats that weren't issued we...Ahaha, what? Shtrafbats that weren't issued weapons? You have got to be joking.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-1480867683399886712013-09-19T16:57:00.017-04:002013-09-19T16:57:00.017-04:00Couldn't this be a confusion with the "Sh...Couldn't this be a confusion with the "Shtrafbat" penal units that were deliberately not issued weapons? Some commenters may have extended this to the entire Red Army.<br /><br />Or else, it could be another case in point that although officially a "planned economy", the main problem in the USSR was the dire lack of and poor execution of any planningThomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751493792596112088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-65926815889276637052013-09-18T20:33:51.815-04:002013-09-18T20:33:51.815-04:00Moscow always gets the prime cut of any meat. Eve...Moscow always gets the prime cut of any meat. Everyone else gets the gristle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-30353662044730815372013-09-18T19:51:00.520-04:002013-09-18T19:51:00.520-04:00From what I have read, the examples of units not h...From what I have read, the examples of units not having enough weapons were largely isolated incidents and most common early on as units became encircled. I cannot find anything which would suggest it was a widespread problem.rossmumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15145748774081415499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-67273480054662552792013-09-17T22:17:10.074-04:002013-09-17T22:17:10.074-04:00Well, granted. But then there's the question o...Well, granted. But then there's the question of whether or not those units deployed to the front have their weapons, if so many are sitting unused in depots.gullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14464222602055314020noreply@blogger.com