tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post4592213494486156464..comments2023-09-22T07:00:54.916-04:00Comments on Tank Archives: Tiger II Trials: GunneryPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-31826951858592381012015-12-11T00:20:53.602-05:002015-12-11T00:20:53.602-05:00Uh, no, again, you have made a technically incorre...Uh, no, again, you have made a technically incorrect statement. Do you have any education or training in regards to the things you go on about?Yugonamehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09363049276280844713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-62520774464759580482015-03-12T21:47:25.870-04:002015-03-12T21:47:25.870-04:00Accuracy and precision are different things, techn...Accuracy and precision are different things, technically speaking. Precision is what artillery tables tell you, accuracy is how far your sights are off the center of where your shells hit. Artillery tables do not mention accuracy, because accuracy changes depending on how well your sights are calibrated. Tables don't include it since you can change it, but you can't sand down the shells you get and re-measure propellant loads to get the same amounts, which is why the table contains deviation figures from those factors.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-66894833840203106872015-03-12T13:34:13.756-04:002015-03-12T13:34:13.756-04:00This DDR table is using Soviet standard the 0.3 an...This DDR table is using Soviet standard the 0.3 and 0.4 value are from HE rounds 0.3 and 0.3 from AP rounds.<br />The link to the handbbok:<br />http://pt.scribd.com/doc/241360314/R-Germershausen-Ed-Handbook-on-Weaponry-BookZZ-org#scribdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-83286937921610260832015-03-12T13:27:37.440-04:002015-03-12T13:27:37.440-04:00Precision and accuracy are two different things.
R...Precision and accuracy are two different things.<br />R50 say about precision, R100 about accuracy.<br />If you have a circle with 100 cm radius and inside it another with 50 cm radius ,at 2000 meters.<br />Using D-25-T, trials above say that 50% of shots is going to the 50 cm circle radius, 30% hit the 100 cm and 20% is going to miss, 80% of hit probability.<br />Using KwK 43 less than 50% of shots is going to hit the small circle but all others shots is going to hit the bigger circle, 100% of hit probability.<br />The reason for this is that shot dispersion from KwK 43 is a ellipse (0.3,0.5(German standard)) from D-25 is a circle(0.3,0.3(Soviet standard).<br />To explain: <br />The area from a circle with radius=15 is<br />π *15*15=706<br />The area from a ellipse with radius=10,20 is<br />π *10*20=628<br />This mean that even with the bigger radius(20) the area from ellipse is smaller than from a circle(so less dispersion)<br />If German standard are equal to soviet standard than the R100 from KwK 43 NEVER is going to be small tha R100 from D-25. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-51730190863509281472015-03-12T11:13:36.103-04:002015-03-12T11:13:36.103-04:00Peter, that is only one test of one gun. It may n...Peter, that is only one test of one gun. It may not representative of the gun system on the whole.<br /><br />In addition armies may have figured dispersion differently.<br />US and UK seem only considered round to round dispersion and found how far they spread from a central point. Like these examples of 17-pdr tests.<br />It doesn't look like they cared if this was not the target center.<br />http://worldoftanks.com/en/news/21/The_Chieftains_Hatch_Firefly/<br />http://worldoftanks.com/dcont/fb/imagesforarticles/chieftains_hatch/usfirefly/17prdisp1000.jpg?MEDIA_PREFIX=/dcont/fb/<br /><br />See all factors that can cause dispersion on US Table I, page 12.<br />http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/316221.pdf<br /><br />The Russians may have included all gun inaccuracies like round to round shell dispersion along with systematic inaccuracies like gun jump and barrel whip. That is why their number is higher.<br /><br />I have no idea of what the German's included in their dispersion number.<br /><br />-MAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-22385616003888321932015-03-10T22:33:05.982-04:002015-03-10T22:33:05.982-04:00The DDR table has 0.3 and 0.4. By your math if the...The DDR table has 0.3 and 0.4. By your math if they were converting from Soviet tables it would be 0.5 and 0.5, no?<br /><br />Also you still haven't addressed the issue that these claims clash with practically obtained results.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-52348335407165097302015-03-10T19:36:18.998-04:002015-03-10T19:36:18.998-04:00You have to follow the math.
50% Zone ρ = (2γ) = 1...You have to follow the math.<br />50% Zone ρ = (2γ) = 1.3490 σ . <br />σ= 1.25331 x mean deviation. <br />So 1.25331 x 1.3490 = 1.69 x mean deviation = 50% Zone<br /><br />This is from DDR 122mm firing table.<br />http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/21308/A1605F6CE6754C30ABA67D2808B392A2.jpg<br /><br />There is a Russian firing table out there somewhere for the 122mm D-25.<br /><br />Essentially both say the average mean deviation at 1000m is .3m vertical and .3m horizontal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-13471087397470234152015-03-10T16:57:18.752-04:002015-03-10T16:57:18.752-04:00Will this do? Table 2
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--...Will this do? Table 2<br />http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--CjPc8EhNyY/UDSprEolkuI/AAAAAAAABBM/-UmqWTcd9yk/s1600/pen2.jpgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-86906595909666051812015-03-10T15:56:34.067-04:002015-03-10T15:56:34.067-04:00I don't see 1.69 anywhere in the third post. Y...I don't see 1.69 anywhere in the third post. You still haven't explained why practical trials reveal the opposite effect compared to what that conversion factor would result in.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-73036167423279017512015-03-10T13:41:50.077-04:002015-03-10T13:41:50.077-04:00The Rheinmetall handbook has a statistical convers...The Rheinmetall handbook has a statistical conversion table showing average mean deviation to the 50% zone deviation. <br /><br />This is found on post #3 here: http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37561<br /><br />-MAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-62949257811804288392015-03-10T10:41:55.144-04:002015-03-10T10:41:55.144-04:00If you apply that multiplier, then the D-25T becom...If you apply that multiplier, then the D-25T becomes much less precise than the KwK 43 (contrary to practical trials). Furthermore, if you take the figure from D-25T tables (30 cm) and multiply it by that multiplier, you get 50 cm, a radius that covers 90% of the shots in practical trials.<br /><br />Furthermore, I highly doubt that a Rheinmetall handbook is going to have any kind of coefficients for the D-25. I've seen many people cite this mystical coefficient, but I have yet to see a scan or even a direct quote from that page.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-12341132155638111982015-03-10T10:22:36.714-04:002015-03-10T10:22:36.714-04:00The Russians reported their guns dispersion in ter...The Russians reported their guns dispersion in terms of average mean deviation while the Germans reported their guns dispersion in terms of 50% deviation zone . To compute the 50% dispersion zone from the mean dispersion values multiply by 1.69. <br /><br />The Rheinmetall Weapons Handbook shows the difference. It used to be online pdf but it is gone now, sorry.<br />https://www.pinterest.com/pin/414331234441992228/<br />-mAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-57547805442901260092015-03-06T15:51:22.482-05:002015-03-06T15:51:22.482-05:00Why do you say that? Theoretically (according to b...Why do you say that? Theoretically (according to ballistics tables), the KwK 43 is less precise than the D-25 for the best 50%. This is demonstrated in practical trials as well: 40 cm vs 24 cm, 62 cm vs 45 cm. Theory matches practice.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-25141762222499881132015-03-06T12:36:05.450-05:002015-03-06T12:36:05.450-05:00Comparing the accuracy of 8,8 cm L/71 with D-25T.
...Comparing the accuracy of 8,8 cm L/71 with D-25T.<br />1000 meters:<br />8,8 L/71<br />R100=48 cm R50=36 cm<br />R100=67 cm R50=43 cm<br />Avg =58 cm Avg=40 cm <br /><br />D-25T<br />R100=80 cm R50=24 cm<br /><br />2000 meters:<br />8,8 L/71<br />R100=93 cm R50= 62 cm <br /><br />D-25T(at 1900 meters)<br />R100=120 cm R50=45 cm <br /><br />links: <br />http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2013/02/accuracy.html<br />http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2013/05/accuracy-revisited.html<br />http://tankarchives.blogspot.com.br/2013/07/ballistic-tables-of<br /><br />I believe this proof that German and Soviet accuracy system are not equivalent, and the German system have larger values for the same gun that in Soviet system.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-62594953047935476402015-03-06T05:17:58.758-05:002015-03-06T05:17:58.758-05:00This is calculated Data. I am looking for real tes...This is calculated Data. I am looking for real test of foreign guns under soviet criteria.Thor_Hammerschlaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230343757139315722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-16725589903833821482015-03-05T09:46:34.332-05:002015-03-05T09:46:34.332-05:00There a couple spots. They all appear to have bee...There a couple spots. They all appear to have been from tests of the very earliest 88mm AP designs used at Kursk.<br />http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/03/penetration.html<br /><br />There's a table that I have saved that has the 88-MM o?p.43 penetrates 121 at 60° 1000m but I don't have the link. Also, has three other guns.<br />-mAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-37941829724909467432015-03-05T02:34:14.626-05:002015-03-05T02:34:14.626-05:00Are the testresults here on the blog? I didnt see ...Are the testresults here on the blog? I didnt see then yet thenThor_Hammerschlaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230343757139315722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-44861235576218760962015-03-04T10:22:59.176-05:002015-03-04T10:22:59.176-05:00Penetration data for the KwK 43 was already availa...Penetration data for the KwK 43 was already available, it was tested on the Ferdinand. There wasn't exactly an ample supply of captured ammunition, so things that haven't been tested yet naturally take priority.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-6984297268814114102015-03-04T02:50:34.469-05:002015-03-04T02:50:34.469-05:00Seriously, an exermination of the gun without pene...Seriously, an exermination of the gun without penetration tests?Thor_Hammerschlaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230343757139315722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-26597234735725149622015-03-03T14:26:38.365-05:002015-03-03T14:26:38.365-05:00Very interesting stuff. Tank you for keeping up th...Very interesting stuff. Tank you for keeping up the best blog there is on the internet! :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com