tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post918373646052808329..comments2024-03-28T14:35:30.147-04:00Comments on Tank Archives: The Future of TanksPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-13048491740960998172018-05-19T14:57:20.692-04:002018-05-19T14:57:20.692-04:00Not to mention that this document makes no claims ...Not to mention that this document makes no claims that such an amount of armour "would be a good future investement", although the LoS thickness of 270+ mm in the T-10 was getting pretty close, but rather ballparks what *might* be required in the near future and the practical upper limits of what can be achieved within the contemporaneus technological and logistical limits.<br /><br />It's a theoretical overview, not a production plan. In practice the Soviets stuck rather firmly to their self-imposed ~50 ton upper limit - Hell, even the new T-14 Armata seems to be trying to respect it.Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-27780408515971307022018-05-19T10:04:23.857-04:002018-05-19T10:04:23.857-04:00CM:
"And yes, Peter, if the soviets keep cla...CM:<br /><br />"And yes, Peter, if the soviets keep claiming during 1947 that 300-350mm armor would be a good future investment for a heavy breakthrough tank than sincerly they failed to get the message."<br /><br />Uh, in what time frame does this 'message' arrive? The Soviet heavy line of IS and T-10 tanks where the bogeyman of NATO ground forces from the end of WWII until the 1960s, almost 20 years after this document appeared. <br /><br />As for HEAT rounds being the wonder weapon that defeats all armor problems of the postwar period, at least in the hand-held infantry form some of the applications left a lot to be desired. I recall in the Vietnam War a US infantryman firing his M72 LAW at a oncoming NVA T-34/85, a tank whose armor was verging on inadequate by WWII's end (especially the 45 mm hull, which was overmatched by just about every tank weapon it was likely to face). All the M72's warhead's impact did was to burn the paint a mite, and that was about all. This too was an event that happened 20 years after this document was penned.<br />Stewart Millenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01261690405884935161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-37894917813583272722018-05-13T19:17:20.767-04:002018-05-13T19:17:20.767-04:00I'd also point out that this supposed worry ov...I'd also point out that this supposed worry over improving hollow-charge performance didn't particularly seem to stop the Germans from producing say Tiger IIs with rather noticeably less armour all around than the canceled superheavies... bit of a consistency issue with that claim, that.Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-62567879230797639572018-05-13T19:11:23.495-04:002018-05-13T19:11:23.495-04:00That's some wildly optimistic projections for ...That's some wildly optimistic projections for a 66 mm rifled warhead... nevermind now that the major land-war headache, the USSR, wasn't really a major user of HEAT munitions anyway.<br />Should THAT indeed have been a factor in canceling the superheavy programs as cm claims it'd then mean the Germans were being utter idiots spooked by hypothetical what-ifs.<br /><br />Conversely every single history of the designs I've ever read has been quite unanimous they were axed on entirely sensible industrial-logistical grounds as soon as Speer could talk that much sense into Der Führer, which sounds a few orders of magnitude more credible and less stupid.Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-92120158087427083352018-05-13T16:51:37.422-04:002018-05-13T16:51:37.422-04:00Critical mass: do you have any sources on the reas...Critical mass: do you have any sources on the reason for ending the Maus/E100 programme due to HEAT ? <br />Inhapihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09389333832375000604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-42469312921875339952018-05-10T10:41:42.962-04:002018-05-10T10:41:42.962-04:00In opposiiton to what You claim, german ww2 HEAT r...In opposiiton to what You claim, german ww2 HEAT research demonstrated that 6.6cm HEAT rifle grenades (6.6cm Schiessbecher Hl.Gr.43) with improved liner geometry could penetrate MAUS with up to 250mm RHA penetration.<br />They fully understood what could be done with better liners, or for example, with deletion of spin (Hl m. Klappleitwerk/ Hl. m. Minenleitwerk). And it didn´t took much to get what can be done with 7.5cm - 8.8cm or larger HEAT warheads.critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-73201219367950534472018-05-10T07:37:46.531-04:002018-05-10T07:37:46.531-04:00I like how you missed the "In the meantime&qu...I like how you missed the "In the meantime" - realistic planning must proceed from what is actually available, not something under R&D that will only yield operational designs God knows when.<br /><br />Also pretty sure the silly German superheavies were axed out of entirely valid economic and logistical considerations, not at the time still essentially theoretical concerns over what HEAT technology might mature into down the road. Period shaped-charge performance wasn't particularly awe-inspiring after all and only really took off well after the war.Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-4535576857345066902018-05-10T05:56:59.725-04:002018-05-10T05:56:59.725-04:00bolting two plates together doesn´t count, it´s a ...bolting two plates together doesn´t count, it´s a stop gap with negative figure of merit compared to a solid plate. Composite armor against full calibre AP is a pretty old (1870´s) thing in naval application (google COMPOUND ARMOUR and it´s derivates), which never prooved to be stronger than contemporary, homogenious nickel steel armor. During ww2 a very different set of requirements (HEAT and subcalibre APCR) drove the innovation of composite armor.<br /><br />https://imgur.com/a/W61LFUI<br /><br />And yes, Peter, if the soviets keep claiming during 1947 that 300-350mm armor would be a good future investment for a heavy breakthrough tank, than sincerly they failed to get the message. Evolution of HEAT makes any practicable amount of thick RHA armor superflous. and HEAT is much less affected by high obliquity than AP/APCR/APDS, providing that the fuze can be relied upon to function. That´s why the whole MAUS/ E100 program was cancelled in the first place during 1943 and 1944, respectively, with no follow up programs issued.critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-35956364625352402262018-05-10T02:45:44.840-04:002018-05-10T02:45:44.840-04:00IIRC the Brits were already riveting hard plates o...IIRC the Brits were already riveting hard plates over soft ones in at least some of their pre/early-war Cruisers - mainly as a simple and cheap way to get the benefits of both types, but same general principle. (In the field of body armour this idea was already used in the Early Modern bulletproof cuirasses.)Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-54364751970524866472018-05-09T21:21:44.497-04:002018-05-09T21:21:44.497-04:00By 1944 the Soviets were already producing variabl...By 1944 the Soviets were already producing variable thickness cast armour. I don't see how you can possibly claim that it took them "much longer" to arrive at the conclusion that simple thick armour is a dead end.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-21011881963478236442018-05-09T14:58:55.132-04:002018-05-09T14:58:55.132-04:00The germans developed and tested extensively SCHOT...The germans developed and tested extensively SCHOTTPANZER, a combination of an array of ductile and hard plates laminated together, as early as 1942/43. It was considered for E100 at one point.<br />Advances in HEAT technology convinced them 1944 that thick armor will be a dead end technology, intereting that the soviets took much longer to arrive at this point. critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-1229944352322142032018-05-09T03:21:24.037-04:002018-05-09T03:21:24.037-04:00I know that Face hardened armour was invented in t...I know that Face hardened armour was invented in the 1890'ies and spaced armour in the 1940'ies (and even much earlier in ships). As for plastic armour: it was used as a steel substitute for providing splinter protection in places where weight didn't matter. (think AA gun tubs on merchant ships). The US tried a prototype with plastic armour added of the M4, but it added too much weight to the tank if they added enough to give any meaningful extra protecttion over the base armour scheme (don't have my books here so no exact numbers )<br /><br />So i wonder: if this 1947 document refers to composite armour are there any other documents, evedidence etc.... that "moderen" composite arour was already being considered in 1947.<br /><br />(Minor nit pick: compound armour was developed in the 1880'ies and consisted of a hard brittle steel plate welded onto a soft iron backing plate. wooden backing had other purposes, but discussing this would take us to far here)Inhapihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09389333832375000604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-21723641671394138632018-05-09T03:20:57.506-04:002018-05-09T03:20:57.506-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Inhapihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09389333832375000604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-39133236676926122502018-05-08T12:35:46.141-04:002018-05-08T12:35:46.141-04:00If memory serves by the Korean War the Americans w...If memory serves by the Korean War the Americans were experimenting with adding a layer of enamel onto the front face of body-armour plates as an early form of ablative defense (fabric coating was soon added to catch the debris knocked off), so there was that line of research too. Probably not very relevant for AFVs though but illustrative of the thinking in general moving on from plain steel plates.Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-34308090192349921892018-05-08T11:25:21.625-04:002018-05-08T11:25:21.625-04:00The British were considering using plastic armour ...The British were considering using plastic armour for protection from small caliber weapons and bomb splinters as well. I have a document with the calculations, pound for pound it isn't as good as armour, but much better than mild steel.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-58100874864458201582018-05-08T10:50:25.922-04:002018-05-08T10:50:25.922-04:00The British "plastic armour" (actually m...The British "plastic armour" (actually more like asphalt) could probably be seen as an early practical application of the general concept:<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_armour#Tank_protection<br /><br />Or perhaps more accurately modern revival, given the great antiquity of the principle in personal defenses (scales attached onto textile or leather backing being the oldest form of metal body armour) and more recently in the "compound armour" of 1800s warships (thick inner layer of teak as shock absorber and "spall liner")...Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-47481468469652071462018-05-08T09:35:14.010-04:002018-05-08T09:35:14.010-04:00Face hardened armour was old news by 1947, spaced ...Face hardened armour was old news by 1947, spaced armour was explored thoroughly in the early 40s. This is "true" composite armour they're starting to think about, in the modern sense.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-15384948064226974642018-05-08T06:40:19.060-04:002018-05-08T06:40:19.060-04:00What do they mean by "composite armour" ...What do they mean by "composite armour" in this period ? face hardened ? Very hard plates laid over softer plates, Space armour ? I have no idea, thanks for any answers.Inhapihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09389333832375000604noreply@blogger.com