tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post2399196196347030983..comments2024-03-28T14:35:30.147-04:00Comments on Tank Archives: PzIII Armour in British HandsPeterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-27101139423745990842018-05-20T13:25:26.950-04:002018-05-20T13:25:26.950-04:00The angle of attack in the document is 20 degrees,...The angle of attack in the document is 20 degrees, yes. The velocity is specific, yes. What's your point? The plate never once managed to resist the 2-pounder AP, which is why the British started angling the plate more to figure out at least something about the German armour other than it's really brittle and breaks up catastrophically. <br /><br />What I don't understand is why you used the data for APCBC and are now claiming that I'm the one using wrong tables.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-61835509185291884052018-05-20T05:01:03.890-04:002018-05-20T05:01:03.890-04:00I have given my answer to that in a memo supressed...I have given my answer to that in a memo supressed by You. You use the wrong tables, of course, and a different obliquity criterium. Not that You want to take care...<br /><br />Note that both, capped and uncapped 2pdr A.P. were fired on 31mm plates at 20° with a specific velocity.<br />critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-5472754967411602892018-05-18T22:04:01.477-04:002018-05-18T22:04:01.477-04:00Dealt with a lot of armor plate in my time working...Dealt with a lot of armor plate in my time working as a machinist, and no way in hell is a touch of "hot wrench" going to radically affect the face hardening.<br /><br />You'd have to get the whole chunk of armor pretty fucking hot to affect any face hardening. <br />At best the effect will be very localized, and easily demonstrable. . Meplathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12480254610764041359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-24508041180821590722018-05-17T11:47:04.149-04:002018-05-17T11:47:04.149-04:00Not to mention that the Soviet tests were against ...Not to mention that the Soviet tests were against a hatch that was not cut up any further, so the heat excuse does not apply.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-47044336600114197402018-05-17T11:15:48.623-04:002018-05-17T11:15:48.623-04:00Are you SERIOUSLY trying to excuse the structural ...Are you SERIOUSLY trying to excuse the structural failure of the entire plate of, what, about 24"x18" if I'm reading the report correctly, by the localised effects of the cutting torch on the edges of it?<br />Get out of here.<br />I was actually taught something about metallurgy and tempering steel years ago in vocational school and that has "bullshit excuse" written all over it. Heat doesn't conduct to THAT degree in steel.<br /><br />I also like how you seem to assume the British testers knew nothing at all about any of that which is absurd right in the face of it. The principles of this have been known to, if for the most part only patchily understood by, blacksmiths for some three thousand years and graduated into a real science during the Industrial Revolution.<br /><br />Not to mention there's no shortage of German plates still solidly in place in the original vehicles shattering under fire, as we have previously discussed.<br /><br />Short form: these plates were not performing acceptably by ANYONE'S standards - I'm giving the Germans more credit than assume their official bar was this low - no matter how desperately you try to deny it and red-herring into factual irrelevancies.Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-82468871383663150212018-05-17T11:00:27.718-04:002018-05-17T11:00:27.718-04:00Let's compare apples and apples:
https://i.im...Let's compare apples and apples:<br /><br />https://i.imgur.com/hou1xFL.png<br /><br />1600 yards to penetrate 32 mm of British armour with HV AP.<br /><br />https://i.imgur.com/hVESBW3.png<br /><br />1700 yards to penetrate the same amount of German armour with HV AP (measurements of captured tanks show that the sides were usually 31-32 mm thick rather than the nominal 30 mm).<br /><br />So a 100 yard difference in British favour instead of the 1000+ yard difference in German favour you claim. In addition, the German plate shatters into pieces while the British one does not, which is why the British concluded that their armour is superior. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-25832581641366250322018-05-17T10:03:21.239-04:002018-05-17T10:03:21.239-04:00Yup, it's just that American, Soviet, and Brit...Yup, it's just that American, Soviet, and British engineers happen to agree with me, and not you. Funny how that worked out.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-76301772184956777702018-05-17T04:13:41.890-04:002018-05-17T04:13:41.890-04:00Peter Samsonov, the mistakes shown here, Your inab...Peter Samsonov, the mistakes shown here, Your inability to reflect the issues of this trial and Your vast ignorance of the differences in plate-projectile interaction mechanics are Your failing, not mine. critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-26818140601411787232018-05-17T04:01:07.929-04:002018-05-17T04:01:07.929-04:00Another red herring is presented by Peter. If he t...Another red herring is presented by Peter. If he thinks that the opposite is true, i.e. in the case of discussion that an undermatching FH plate can be defeated in ductile mode than he is even more depart from the physics of this world than anybody could ever imagine...<br /><br />It´s not enough to take a result, You have to understand what factors were involved in a given result.<br /><br />F.e. WHY, for example, do You fail to reflect upon the fact that the PzIII plates were removed with help of a cutting torch? How does a secondary heat treatment followed by an aircool does to a surface hardened plate, which is Thermo-mechanically treated to fit a specific condition?<br /><br />Do You admit that You failed to reflected about it because You don´t comprehend these problems? critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-81274492164365402972018-05-16T18:11:08.589-04:002018-05-16T18:11:08.589-04:00Well "superior ballistic resistance" is ...Well "superior ballistic resistance" is certainly a fine thing and I think we can all agree the way about half of the shells shattered against the plate without achieving much is a perfectly satisficatory outcome.<br /><br />The plate itself progressively breaking to smaller and smaller pieces on about every other hit, OTOH, is *not* regardless of how you try to spin it. The intented design of the metallurgy is simply irrelevant here; THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN PERIOD.<br />Again - this is not ballistic-vest ceramic inserts.<br /><br />While your explanation of the operating principles is interesting it changes nothing about that naked truth and has the unbecoming whiff of a red herring about it.Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-57392808209424017962018-05-16T10:06:03.687-04:002018-05-16T10:06:03.687-04:00No, we can agree that you have an over-inflated op...No, we can agree that you have an over-inflated opinion of yourself.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-48197555265586020022018-05-16T10:04:58.336-04:002018-05-16T10:04:58.336-04:00You're comparing penetration of British armour...You're comparing penetration of British armour with APCBC to penetration of German armour with AP. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-74772318064982101002018-05-16T10:03:40.346-04:002018-05-16T10:03:40.346-04:00Right, so what's your excuse for Soviet 30 mm ...Right, so what's your excuse for Soviet 30 mm armour plates withstanding hits from 45 mm AP while German plates of the same size shatter into pieces? A wizard did it?<br /><br />I already showed you many, many sources that say the opposite of what you claim. The British say, time and time again, that comparable German armour is *inferior* to their IT70 and IT80 standards.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-56132675102651293552018-05-16T05:07:13.764-04:002018-05-16T05:07:13.764-04:00Well at least we can agree that You don´t understa...Well at least we can agree that You don´t understand these things because You keep comparing apples with oranges.critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-51677504562888448732018-05-16T05:03:08.789-04:002018-05-16T05:03:08.789-04:00To reiterate:
FACE HARDENED PLATE CANNOT FAIL BY ...To reiterate:<br /><br />FACE HARDENED PLATE CANNOT FAIL BY DUCTILE HOLE FORMATION<br /><br />So difficult to understand? FH cannot fail in a clean ductile holing event, that failure mode is only possible for RHA and Navy KC, and only when the ductile back section of the decrementally hardened KC plate is considerably larger than the attacking projectile (i.e. 15cm APC vs 25cm KC plate, which I own the trial reports of). FH plate will be rigid until it is defeated by attack, at which point it will give in a rapid way either by plugging or discing. Cracking is frequently associated with surface hardened FH plate when attacked by overmatching projectiles (which 40mm vs 30mm plate, actually is true here). What counts is that the FH plate is of superior ballistic resistence compared to MQ or british FH.<br />Yes it will fail badly, but it will fail at shorter range to the same threat, and considerably thicker armor would be required to meet this shorter range protection with MQ plate. If ductile hole character were the only criterium of good armor, then everybody would have used mild steel instead of FH / HHA/ RHA armor.critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-86555877942359365182018-05-16T04:52:33.199-04:002018-05-16T04:52:33.199-04:00SUPP9/610 official penetration tables of 2pdr gun ...SUPP9/610 official penetration tables of 2pdr gun firing A.P.C.B.C.<br /><br />critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-5281083442652760782018-05-13T18:57:49.730-04:002018-05-13T18:57:49.730-04:00It also fell apart on the first solid hit. I'm...It also fell apart on the first solid hit. I'm not familiar with a criterion of armour-plate performance by which that would be considered "faring extraordinarily well"...<br /><br />Last I checked proper armour was supposed to fail by getting a relatively clean hole punched through it, not by completely falling apart like so much glass. That the shell that caused said unsightly fragmenting *also* shattered seems like a rather cold comfort given how the plates form a load-bearing structural element...Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-39452365494331774842018-05-13T18:49:33.376-04:002018-05-13T18:49:33.376-04:00Pray tell how is the plate shattering on first act...Pray tell how is the plate shattering on first actual hit supposed to be acceptable material performance by ANY standard whatsoever? And the 2-pounder wasn't even a spectacularly powerful gun.<br /><br />You can posture all you want about your supposedly superior knowledge (and pretend stating the obvious somehow demonstrates such superiority) but that does nothing to change the blunt fact *the plate broke to pieces* which I can only assume wasn't exactly what the German military ordered.Kellomieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04915110653443066212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-51546941879036297302018-05-13T00:54:33.842-04:002018-05-13T00:54:33.842-04:00Yes, I'm sure all the British, American, and S...Yes, I'm sure all the British, American, and Soviet engineers whose findings I post here have no understanding of anything, you are the only one who is qualified to make any statements and your opinion is equal to their findings.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-19116650645940358532018-05-13T00:51:58.928-04:002018-05-13T00:51:58.928-04:00Where are you getting any of these figures from?Where are you getting any of these figures from?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-58843923796820702242018-05-12T08:08:21.002-04:002018-05-12T08:08:21.002-04:00When the 2pdr is expected to penetrate 30mm britih...When the 2pdr is expected to penetrate 30mm britih FH plate at distances larger than 2000/2200 yard and the german PzIII FH plate can only be perforated at 1000 yard, yes, then I´d argue that it is ballistically superior. Why? Because it is vulnerable to the same threat at only half the distance.critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-42724605967357747432018-05-12T08:05:33.309-04:002018-05-12T08:05:33.309-04:00And as I already responded, You comnpared apples w...And as I already responded, You comnpared apples with oranges:<br />A) soviet definition of poor plate behaviour required >3 cal diameter holes, or it would be considered "fair". british or german definitions had a much tighter border <2 cal diamter hole, US even 1.5 cal.<br />B) the MZ2 failed vs Br350A (uncappedAP). These shells break up on impact. The 2pdr used here shattered, too against the PzIII armor.<br />T34 was attacked by capped AP on the battlefield, and these shells, having superior penetration to the inferior, uncapped soviet domestic AP, will cause smaller diameter holes because they usually stay intact and don´t break up.<br /><br />Different failure mechanics. But I don´t expect You to understand the basic fundamentals of armor protection given Your track record on these matters...critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-52264953507543412392018-05-10T13:10:02.700-04:002018-05-10T13:10:02.700-04:00*Plate shatters into pieces on impact*
British eng...*Plate shatters into pieces on impact*<br />British engineer: this plate is too brittle and below our standards.<br />Soviet engineer: this plate is too brittle and below our standards.<br />American engineer: this plate is too brittle and below our standards.<br />Critical mass: actually none of you know anything about metallurgy and it's actually really good because I said so.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-31627833212768195722018-05-10T13:08:05.465-04:002018-05-10T13:08:05.465-04:00As I already illustrated to you every single time ...As I already illustrated to you every single time you bring this up (which seems to be in every other post), this alleged weakness does not show up during analysis of knocked out tanks on the battlefield, whereas is absolutely does for Germans. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09622237223229485503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5030145265861917845.post-15272209435318264032018-05-10T11:43:50.069-04:002018-05-10T11:43:50.069-04:00Plus, one should not forget that the PzIII plate t...Plus, one should not forget that the PzIII plate tested here was a FACE HARDENED plate, not homogenious. It faired extraordinary well if compared to aequivalent thickness british FH plate. The 2pdr firing APCBC was rated to defeat 31mm british FH (carburized plate) @30° at more >2000 and <2500yds, which is, as You might recognize, twice the range the PzIII plate failed. critical masshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02366274198749901618noreply@blogger.com