I've posted tons of very technical information on the performance of various 75 and 88 mm German guns. However, all that really doesn't say much about how well these guns performed on the battlefield. Thankfully, Colonel P.S Igumnov did all the hard work for me, and all I have to do is show figures from his doctoral thesis, "Investigation of Destruction of Domestic Tanks (using the experience of the Great Patriotic War).
Here's a nifty data set, distances of penetrations from the two aforementioned calibers:
And a nicer looking version of the data, compiled by
fat-yankey.
The data is not surprising at all. The majority of 88 mm hits are at 600-800 meters, exactly the range at which a Tiger would be engaging a T-34 according to the Tigerfibel. The mythical 2 km shots represent a negligible amount of the total. The 75 mm caliber favours closer engagements, at about 400-500 meters.
Does this data cover 75/48-75/70 and 88/56-88/71? As their performances over ranges were radically different, it would have been better if they were somewhat distinguishable.
ReplyDeleteThe data covers all guns for that caliber. It's hard to tell how long the gun was from the hole the shell left.
DeleteA bit off-topic comment here, Peter, but do you have a document about the fire control of the T-34? I've read one of the comment on this site saying that T-34 had poor fire control that hampered their overall accuracy.
ReplyDeleteI haven't read anything about that. Were they any more specific than just "fire control"?
ReplyDeleteIt's at the end of Accuracy Revisited article, and more than just fire control, including cramped turret, poor optics (debunked), poor gun depression, etc. I doubt what the commentator said has much basis on reality or not.
DeleteProbably not, seeing as how they blame gun depression for poor accuracy.
DeleteAny link to Igumnov's "doctoral" thesis, Peter?
ReplyDeleteThe tiger gun could pierce the t 34 armour at 800 meters when fired at a 30 degre angle, is fired at a 90 degre angle it could pierce it at 1600-1800 meters
ReplyDeletehttp://www.esatclear.ie/~godot/T34Chart.jpg
DeleteDoesn't look like 30 degrees to me.
And what it does look like? 90 degrees?
DeleteTo cite the Panther Fibel on this case: "The firing range is always given at a side angle of 60°" and "
The figure for 60° is the most favourable because the appropriate firing range applies to an average of the results which is considered in 8 different directions." - Which count the armour angling at 60° (standard), 49°, 38°, 16° for L/R.
So no, you are clearly wrong and misinterpret the factual sheet. Even the russian trial of the KwK 36 "Отчёта по испытаниям броневой защиты танка Т 34 обстрелом из 88 мм немецкой танковой пушки" showing that the Tiger could easily pen the T-34-76's beam nose of 140 mm thickness and glacis out of 1500m at 90°. A hit towards the driver hatch would force it to collaps.
I'm not misinterpreting the diagram. You see the 800 m figure in many other documents. Carius himself said that he would fire at 900 meters.
Delete"Doesn't look like 30 degrees to me."
DeleteAgain, what does it look like to you? If you are assuming it at 90 degrees, than you clearly haven't comprehend its primary meaning.
Interesting stuff, and I appreciate you for posting this. Would just like to make a comment though, that this doesn't really say anything about the capabilities of each of the respective gun (calibres) to penetrate their targets at x distance. It may have been unlikely for battles to take place at ranges beyond 1000m, but that doesn't mean that the gun can't be effective beyond those ranges.
ReplyDeleteAnd from what I can tell, with the KwK36, it definitely was capable of those "mythical" 2km kills: it had both the accuracy and penetrative power to do so at least fairly reliably.
So did most guns. The Soviet 45 mm AT gun and even the German 37 mm door knocker were capable of this. The point is that WWII era guns were used this way very infrequently.
DeleteAt which year this statistic was made? During the war or it is a postwar examination?
ReplyDeletePost-war.
DeleteIt would be really interesting to follow the proportion of tank and AT guns by caliber during the war also.. Particularly the 88 mm guns as a percentage of the whole inventory
DeleteIt would. The thesis has a breakdown of shell hits broken down by caliber for several armoured operations, but it's all over the place. I don't think a theaterwide breakdown by month exists.
DeleteSo Colonel Igumnov researched penetrating hits? It often requires a few shots to acquire a hit, and maybe a few more to get a real kill shot. So it is likely that German crews engaged Soviet tanks at a bit longer ranges (700-1000m) but only acquired hits/kills at 600-800m. Both the Germans and Soviets would probably be moving towards eachother, no?
ReplyDeleteWhat was the method involved?
ReplyDeleteIn particular, how was the distance measured or assessed?
Can you post a link to the study? What was the sample size, from what year were the kills, what was the methodology, what AFVs were examined and how was range of the kill determined?
ReplyDeleteexactly!
ReplyDelete